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The initial posts from the listserv
Here is the initial conversation (names have been changed to provide
some confidentiality for students):
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Current Forum: Ongoing Course Discussion Read 14 times
Date: Wed Apr 25 2001 5:04 pm
Author: Debra
Subject: B.C - stories and appropriation
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I hesitated to bring this up, but seeing as it floats a bit around what
we are talking about on-line right now - I thought, "Why not?"
I don't know if any of you have been following the controversy of J. Hart's
cartoon "B.C." the week of Passover/Easter. In it he shows a
menorah going out one light at a time and all that is left is a cross.
I have been following the commentaries, and heard Hart interviewed on
the radio. Some papers have pulled his cartoon column as a result of this
cartoon.
On one side of the argument is the appropriation of something distinctly
Jewish - the Menorah and pairing it with the cross, which to most Jews
is very offensive. Hart says his "intention" was to show the
relationship and/or roots of both Judaism and Christianity.
The problem is that one needs to understand both first - before attempting
to write/draw a cartoon. In this regard, Hart failed to do his homework.
I don't think I would have had as much problem with it had he not depicted
the menorah lights going out one at a time through each frame until the
end when it was completely out. While I understand that he was 'trying'
to replicate a distinctly Christian practice of darkness on Good Friday,
it touched a long and extremley painful history of teaching that Judaism
is dead; that God has cut us off. It smelled of supersessionism. It was
very difficult not to think that. The practice he was showing, does not
appear in Judaism and wasn't present until later in Church history, making
it more difficult to show a relationship of common roots.
His appropriation was out of context. In his interview he said that the
Menorah was associated with the Jewish holy day of Passover! Wrong - it
is Hannakah. If Mr. Hart doesn't understand (and I would guess he is not
alone on this account) the role of the Menorah. Jews on the other hand
don't know about or understand the practice of darkening the sanctuary
as part of the Good Friday service. Therefore, to produce a cartoon like
both would understand, to me was acting irresponsibly.
I agree there is much we share in common. My expereince has been that
the church does not talk about that commonality and doesn't see a need
to. But, that is a different topic.
I don't question the freedom to share his faith - but I think he could
send his message in way that would have been far less hurtful. That is,
if he sees Judaism and Christianity so closely related - don't protray
one as being less than the other.
Appropriation in some way demands a responsibility to understand what
it is that you are taking and to be sure that you use it responsibly.
Or at least claim ignorance to begin with.
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Current Forum: Ongoing Course Discussion Read 10 times
Date: Thu Apr 26 2001 5:50 pm
Author: Ben
Subject: Re: B.C - stories and appropriation
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To begin with I suppose I am claiming ignorance about the Jewish faith
and heritage. It probably doesn't come as great shock. I do however wish
to comment anyway. So please note, no offense is intended in my comments,
it's just that sometimes I'm not all so bright.
Not to totally defend the cartoon, espcially since I didn't see it but
I've heard some of the "buzz" about it. However, I wonder if
Hart had used a correct symbol for Passover if his Christian readers would
have understood his intention to show a link between Judaism and Christianity.
The two symbols probably best recognized to with the Jewish faith are
the menorah and the Star of David. Because of the association with the
holocaust I suspect the use of the Star of David would have lost what
possitive may have been gleened by some.
However, what I really wanted to ponder is the implied notion that coming
from makes the originator lesser. I picked a feeling that one reading
of Hart's cartoon is that because Christianity came from the Jewish faith
Christianity is therefore superior. While that may have been the message
(intentionally or unintentionally) in the cartoon, I don't know if that
is necessarily a realistic assumption. The two examples that immediately
come to mind for me is first ourselves. We come from our parents. Does
that make our parents lesser than us? Not from my perspective. I also
think about the Nicene Creed and its intentional language about the Trinity,
like "begotten of the Father." To me that is a notion of coming
from the Father. If Jesus came from the Father does that make God the
Father less than Jesus? Again I would argue not. (Although, I do recall
Mary mentioning she's picked up a sense of that with the high Christology
around here.) So from that sense to say that Christianity came from Judaism
is not a bad thing. Is all lost with this cartoon if Christians were brought
to see that our faith community grew out of another faith community so
therefore we equals? (Please understand I'm not trying to ignore the offense
of the cross to Jews.)
I'm still pondering, but this seems like an important thing for us to
wrestle with in our faith lives. I can't help but wonder, also, if some
this doesn't get more complicated because we live in a land of "religious
freedom." (Or at least not a legalized religion.)
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Current Forum: Ongoing Course Discussion Read 10 times
Date: Thu Apr 26 2001 8:32 pm
Author: Debra
Subject: Re: B.C - stories and appropriation
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Well let me attempt a response. Hart says he did not intend to offend
anyone. I don't know that there is a symbol for Passover - unless one
wishes to talk about a seder plate or the cup of wine for set out for
Elijah. The problem in his interview was that he used the menorrah, saying
that it was a symbal of Passover - which it isn't. Minimally, he 'appropriated'
a symbol that he didn't understand.
As to the question of superiority or which is higher - the problem in
my mind - regardless of where we may differ in theology is that by having
the menorah candles go out and be completely darkened - supported and
reinforced in many people's minds (Christian and non-Christian alike)
bad theology and old prejudices. Regardless of his use of the cross.
Your analogies are interesting, but I don't see the connection. I don't
think that by coming after my parents makes me superior to them. The point
is that there has been a long and unpleasant history between the two groups:
Jews and Christians and a variety of theologies of superiority of one
over the other. Many from both sides have and continue to work against
and dispell these, through education and conversation etc. For those of
us in that work, to have a cartoon like this one undoes the hard work
and only served to reinforce bad feelings.
You asked, "So from that sense to say that Christianity came from
Judaism is not a bad thing. Is all lost with this cartoon if Christians
were brought to see that our faith community grew out of another faith
community so therefore we equals?" I whole heartedly agree that for
Christians to see that their faith came from Judaism is a good thing.
The problem was it was lost with the cartoon - because IT DID NOT show
that one faith community grew out of another. And that was the problem.
As I said, if Hart had not shown the lights going out frame by frame,
it would have sent a very different message - in my opinion. Even if he
used the menorah as a symbol for Passover.
I will bring the cartoon in to class - as they say "A picture is
worth a thousand words."
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Current Forum: Ongoing Course Discussion Read 8 times
Date: Fri Apr 27 2001 1:27 am
Author: Ben
Subject: Re: B.C - stories and appropriation
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Here's what I was going for in the analogies. . .I sensed from you earlier
that the cartoon was depicting, among other things, Christianity coming
from Judaism. Because the candles were going out in the cartoon that then
also equated, in your mind, Judaism being a lesser religion. That was
the sense I got was one of the interpretations of the cartoon you had.
How Hart chose to portray that message I cannot totally defind because
I have not seen it, however, the message of Christianity coming from Judaism
does not have to be a negative thing. That was the point I was going for.
Unfortunately the analogy breaks down because in the birth example and
the creed the original is not snuffed out. Although, I still hold, coming
from is not a bad thing. I also brought that all up to try and hint towards
my personal feelings that Judaism and Chrisianiy are closely related,with
so many common faith stories and all, with varying views of Jesus (a crucial
dividing line I suppose).
I agree that Hart's speaking of, and use of, the menorah displayed his
ignorance of the subject. I suppose there were numerous Jews offended
by the snuffing out of the candles (that's not my heritage so I can't
speak to that). However, from what you describe of it I can't help but
figure countless Christians were encouraged to celebrate their unity,
through God, with our Jewish brothers and sisters. If an equal number
of Christians were encouraged or touched somehow to realize and recognize
their faith connection to Judaism, and some of those were even moved to
work from the Christian end to improve relations and understanding of
one another, is the cartoon a lost cause? At what level can this cartoon
have a redeeming quality? What light do we need to shed to find some,
or at least a, possitive in this cartoon? I also wonder if it's all that
bad if this controversy that it's stirred has generated discussions (literally
thanks to the internet) around the world about the Jewish Christian connection?
Unfortunately, sometimes a little controversy like this is needed to generate
these conversations.
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Current Forum: Ongoing Course Discussion Read 8 times
Date: Fri Apr 27 2001 8:47 am
Author: Debra
Subject: Re: B.C - stories and appropriation
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I whole-heartedly agree that sometimes controvery is a good thing. The
problem is that many Christians (and Jews) did NOT interpret the cartoon
in the manner Hart says he intended - so much for control of our messages.
It is this very failure: that many people did not see the connection between
the faiths nor saw it as a message of unity and cause for celebration.
If they had - then hurray for Hart and his cartoon. Unfortunately, from
what I have read and heard it did the opposite.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, "that coming from" is a bad thing.
Only that the message for nearly 1900 years has been that Christianity's
coming from replaced Judaism and that Jews are no longer God's chosen
people. Sadly this has been and continues to be the message in most Christian
tradtions. I rejoice with those that do not.
I cannot say at this time that there is any particular 'redeeming' quality
in the cartoon. Unless, its controversy leads to bringing real issues
to the forefront, and honest discussions occur. My experience has been
this is rare. Instead, people are angry - and not just Jews.
I don't mean to sound pessimistic. My work and ministry is in the field
of reconcilliation and the intra-faith dialogue of Christians and Jews.
More of my work has been with Christians and Christian churches than not,
and it is very hard work when theologies and attidudes are such that seeing
a cartoon like BC did and does not lead to ideas of unity, but rather
reinforces wrong understandings.
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Current Forum: Ongoing Course Discussion Read 10 times
Date: Thu Apr 26 2001 10:17 pm
Author: Jack
Subject: Re: B.C - stories and appropriation
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As a Christian the cartoon did not offend me because I see Jesus as the
fulfillment of the Old Testament. I have studied and embraced Judaism
because I feel it is a very important part of my faith. I also see many
Christians feeling the same way. Of course that is one interpretation
of the Old Testament. I can see others who do not see Jesus as the fulfillment
of Judaism being very offended by the cartoon. We hold of faith to be
sacred and when something tries to break that down we get angry.
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Current Forum: Ongoing Course Discussion Read 9 times
Date: Thu Apr 26 2001 11:38 pm
Author: Debra
Subject: Re: B.C - stories and appropriation
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Explain more about what you mean by:
"fulfillment of the Old Testament"; about embracing Judaism;
and the fulfillment of Judasim? These are very different things. It sounds
as though you are saying that the Old Testament = Judaism. Maybe I am
not following what you are saying. How do you embrace Judaism? How do
you define Judaism?
What you wrote compels me to ask whether you think Jesus came to bring
"Christianity" to the world? Or that he came to bring the gentiles
(non-Jews) to knowledge of the one God?
I don't find it surprising that you or other Christians are not offended
by the cartoon. It was not drawn and written showing Christianity as something
lesser or implying Christianity as ending. I would wager to say that had
the cartoon showed Jesus still in the tomb and the lights of the menorah
lighting, one branch at a time till they were all lit - that you would
not be very happy.
I do not believe God ever intended that there should be two faiths: Jews
and Christians, despite the fact, that is our present reality. By the
same token, no one benefits if we don't all treat each other respectfully.
I appreciate and thank your for taking the time to learn something about
Judaism. Few Christians understand the roots of their faith. Much of the
Second Testament is not fully appreciated or properly understood because
Christians don't understand Judaism in its first century (let alone the
current context) such as:
- the Lord's Prayer is a Jewish prayer
- many of the parables are from the Midrashim
- the parables are presented using traditional rabbinic methods (not understanding
this, can lead one to different understanding of what is said)
- Jesus and the apostles were not "Christians" but Jews, and
so on.
It is often difficult for Jews to be patient or even understanding when
Christians take what was and still is our living and sacred text and interpret
it out of context and/or use it against us. No more than it is ok for
Jews to change how they interpret the text used by Christians to support
their beliefs in order to protect Judaism against Christian claims.
I can only imagine how it must grieve God, that his people are at such
odds with one another. It is my prayer that someday, we can sit and reason
together. With neither side believing it is better than the other; that
one holds more truth than the other; or that God loves one better than
another.
Jews long and wait for Messiah, Christians wait for their Messiah to come
again. Maybe neither will happen until we learn to get along and appreciate
the other and the gifts he has given us.
Enough said.
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Current Forum: Ongoing Course Discussion Read 9 times
Date: Fri Apr 27 2001 9:34 am
Author: Jack
Subject: Re: B.C - stories and appropriation
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I know that the Old Testament is not all that Judaism is but I know many
Christians who do feel that way. And I do agree with you that God ever
intended to have two faiths. But I do see God coming down to live on this
earth in the human of Jesus. Jesus brought a new teaching and revealed
God to us in a different way then we have known before. Some choose to
believe Jesus and some do not. In his ministry Jesus went to the Jews
first and then went to the Gentiles. God wanted to save everybody and
did not just send Jesus to preach to the Gentiles, Jesus also came to
teach the Jews. At least this is the conclusion I have come up with and
can see scripture in the Old Testament and Judaism that I feel supports
my claims, but my faith is what really gives me wisdom and knowledge.
Jeremy
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Current Forum: Ongoing Course Discussion Read 13 times
Date: Thu May 3 2001 8:45 pm
Author: Mary (the teacher)
Subject: Re: B.C - stories and appropriation
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I've been holding off on responding in this discussion for a bunch of
reasons, not the least of which is that I thought you all were doing a
fairly good job of remaining engaged and civil. So, first, thank you for
that.
But let me add that there are at least two issues I hope we could address.
The first is the question of popular media appropriation of religious
symbols, and then the second is specifically Christian appropriation of
Jewish symbols/narratives.
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